Welcome to the Think Tank. This is a new segment that I have been given permission to start up. The idea is that I will post a quote on here and then we can have a discussion pertaining to the quote. We can talk about how we interpret the quote, if we agree or not, why we agree or not, the ideas behind the quote, pretty much anything relevant. The point is to think and share ideas. The first installment will have a quote from a personal favorite philosopher, Sir Bertrand Russell:
"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong." -Bertrand Russell
What do you think?
19 comments:
I agree with this quote on varying degrees. It is definitely true that one should never jump into a war/debate with your life on the line, and not have all the facts or half formed conclusions. However, if you believe that what you could do could save or help the people around you then it might be worth dying for.
I just thought about visiting this site again, it has been a while.
I must say that I disagree with this quote. I agree with the old saying: "A man who won't die for something is not fit to live." I don't know where I heard that but I couldn't agree with it more. What are you if you aren't passionate about something?
There are times when you must be willing to die simply because it is the right thing to do. I don't believe in a world without justice, honor, or courage. I don't believe in a world without a higher power or idea.
It's good to see you back, Jake.
I'm gonna have to agree with Jake on this one. There's a lot of beliefs I wouldn't die for, like for instance that bacon is the greatest food product ever devised by man.
But there are some beliefs that are integral to my being, beliefs that define me. Those I will fight for. Those I will die for. Without them, I'm dead anyway.
Glad to see some discussion. I personally think that I agree with Sir Russell up to a certain degree. I think there is a time and a place where martyrdom is necessary. I think that when this time is and where this place is needs to be thought about very very carefully. I think also that we could look at this quote in a different light. Perhaps Sir Russell is saying that one needs to be careful with beliefs and acknowledge the simple fact that you could be wrong and the implications this has.
I think it's naive to say that in order to be passionate about something you have to be willing to die for it. Although I admire your passion for whatever it is you would give your life for, living life is a passion in itself.
As for the quote in itself, he doesn't appear to be religious (but I don't know for sure). The main cornerstone of religion is faith, so no truly religious person would doubt their beliefs. While some call it blindness, I think faith is a great thing that sustains many people. So in a religious context, I disagree with the quote, because a genuinely religious person does not doubt his faith. My two cents.
Good point Lucas! I think agree that we may have been taking the quote a bit literally. It could just be making a point that one should carefully think about what you are doing, and why you are doing it before you throw your whole self into a cause. Human life is too valuable to risk it without knowing exactly what you are doing.
Max: Glad you could contribute. I agree with your statement that passion is not defined by self sacrifice to the nth degree. Sir Russell is an avowed atheist, by the way. When you say that faith sustains many people, do you not believe that the absolute truth, which may be what these people believed in without proof of its veracity, also sustains people?
Gray: Quite right. Worth a second glance at this interpretation at least.
I am not sure that the concept of absolute truth is much different from faith. I see them as serving the same purpose. No matter what a person bases their life on something concrete that they completely believe in. That ultimately they believe is greater than themselves. (That does not mean that they must be willing to die for it);
I believe it is logical to think that one must know "exactly" what they are doing before they are willing to die for a cause. But I do not think that it is very applicable to reality. Too many people die for a cause that they know nothing about but think they do.
While I agree that people should make educated choices it is important to recognize that if you are always trying to know "exactly" what you are then you will quickly become paralyzed morally.
I'm not so sure that he is just trying to say that we need to think about things because he says "never". He could very well be saying that there is no absolute truth or way of knowing things absolutely.
if i had absolutely no idea whether my beliefs were right or wrong, i wont put my life on the line. but what if i was right? many folks in history have defended their beliefs, knowing that they are correct, conscious of the fact that they will be persecuted for their views. even if i knew i was right, i still wouldn't throw away my life just so i could be heard. i would just sit quietly, and keep my thoughts to myself.
J-man: So we have a differing opinion, good. The very idea of having a belief is that you are not sure if you are right are wrong. You believe in something not because of facts, but because of personal reasons. For example, I know gravity exists so I do not say I believe in gravity. IF you always just keep your ideas to yourself how can you promote them?
Wait a second, Lucas. I think you need to recognize that just because people, generally, view their own opinions as absolute fact doesn't make them so. Saying that you believe something simply admits the possibility for error. I imagine Bertrand Russel, when he thinks that the best way to achieve world peace is to detonate a nuclear charge in the middle of times square at least spends some time thinking about it, because he recognizes that it is belief and may or may not be fact. However, if someone were to approach the same situation like you approach gravity, by saying that without doubt, it is true (they "know" it) then we might have an explosion on our hands...not to imply that you intend to blow anything up.
A quick Question for you Ann Arkey:
Is there any way of knowing if what you believe is true?
Sure the scientific method can be applied to gravity, but not so much politics.
Anne Arkey: I completely agree with you that because people believe in their opinions as facts does not make them true. I am not quite sure where you got a differing viewpoint. I assume that your quip about Sir Russell detonating Times Square is just an example. My example of gravity was that there are certain things in life that we are as positive about as we can be. To the best possible limits of our knowledge, gravity exists and we can predict its behavior.
I see no point in living life if you aren't living it for a reason.
On the flip side though, and Jake also said this, what's the point of living life if you have nothing you would die for? Faith really defines us on a lot of levels, and while, on a level, faith is logically bankrupt, it does involve deciding that there is something that you know better then you do, it is also maybe the only smart thing we ever really do for ourselves, because once you have faith, you have a guiding star for your life. And I don't neccesarilly mean faith in God, but if you don't have faith in something, you'll wander rudderless throughout your life, confused, beat up, and with nothing really to say and nowhere to start. Thankfully, even people who tell you otherwise usually don't follow their own advice, Bertrand Russel in particular was very passionate about truth, as a philosopher and mathematician, and passion is the most retarded faith of them all! ;)
Jeremy: there a few things that I disagree with you but namely your last two sentences hit me wrong. Yes he had a passion for truth but hos is passion faith? I do not see this, could you explain? Sorry for the late reply.
Oh and saying that without faith one is living life with no reason also seems off. I can have a path to my life without beloning to or having a particular faith.
@ Lucas, well you don't have to promote your belief. you can just let everyone else suffer for not knowing what you know.
dying for you beliefs is kind of a sad thing anyway. it might sound courageous or honorable, but in the end you're just killing yourself. it's a deliberate sacrifice for an idea. it's suicide. And in suicide, you always lose.
@Lucas: Passion is the faith in your emotions, the trust of your heart, perhaps the most irrational faith you can have.
@J-man: True. Faithlessness often breeds selfishness, though love can bring people to profess ideas as well.
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