Hello and Welcome to The Think Tank.
This week we are thinking about God and religion. This is an issue where the battle lines are already drawn and people are already closed minded about: Religion. The thought assignment this week is to think about religion from an independent point of view (without your usual bias) and find some common ground in the general debate. Take whatever you believe and find something that you can agree with on the "other side" of the argument, and then post it. If it seems that there is "Nothing" that you can possibly agree with on the other side of the "debate" then you are not looking hard enough. Lets see if we can't find some common ground.
22 comments:
Alright 2 for 2 on things I disagree with! What "argument" are you talking about? The atheist argument doesn't work at all. The evidence for god is all around us! I need no further proof.
I really don't think there is anything to argue about. There have been way to many instances where god has taken care of me and my family. I feel sorry for those who don't believe in god they really should reconsider. I couldn't imagine my life if I lived in sin
Good day to you Jake! Now, let me play devil's advocate with you if you will allow me too, I am not going to put my personal religious beliefs out there yet.
The statement, "I really don't think there is anything to argue about." is a very close minded way to look at this. Even if you are very firmly rooted in your beliefs, which it appears that you are, that does not mean that someone will not disagree and that they have absolutely no valid points.
"There have been way to many instances where god has taken care of me and my family." How do you know that this god of yours did this for you and your family? Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor, in a nutshell it means that you should look for the most reasonable cause of something, not to extrapolate to something that requires complex explanation (this is a very succinct explanation, if you would like to go to the Wikipedia page on it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor.
"I feel sorry for those who don't believe in god they really should reconsider." First things first; Why do you feel sorry for those that don't believe in your god? (I will assume that it is the Judeo-Christian God of the Bible based on statistics correct me is this assumption is wrong.)
Then in your second post you say: "What "argument" are you talking about? The atheist argument doesn't work at all." Just out of curiosity, what is the "atheist argument"? And why does it not work?
"The evidence for god is all around us!" Are you saying that the world and everything in it is the proof? Why is the necessarily proof of your God and not some other god like Allah, Mithras, Zeus (I am completely serious), etc.?
Thanks much, I hope we can learn off of one another in the near future.
Sapientia est potentia.
Alright then lets argue. In your first paragraph you accuse me of being close minded. If having a belief is your definition of close minded then you need to get a new dictionary. I was stating my knowledge of God's existence not closing my mind. Also while saying that there are going to be people who are going to disagree with me is true it does not make your argument that I am close minded true. They are separate from each other. I am very well aware thank you very much that people disagree with me but I know that those people are wrong and they have never changed my stance on the knowledge of God.
I like your third paragraph. "this god of yours" I believe that you mean "this god of mine" because everyone is a child of god and denial does not change that. But I don't get why you say that my explanation is more complicated than any other. I don't know but I think that saying the words "thank you Heavenly Father" are much simpler then figuring out if there could be science behind a miracle.
To answer your fourth paragraph I would say that I live my life with so much more love because of my knowledge of Christ and my life is truly fulfilled with him in it. I feel sorry for those who are depressed and don not have him.
The atheist argument is that everything, the universe, earth, life, the sun, man, just happened by accident. The atheist argument is that somehow billions of years ago rocks turned into cells and that just doesn't make any sense. There is no way that God did not create it all. Without God none of this has any purpose and that just can't be true. This also answers your last argument. The evidence for God is everything around us because ultimately he created it.I know that he is the only god because the bible, my pastor, and my moral fiber tell me. I need no more proof.
By the way, just because you use large words doesn't mean that your argument is correct or makes any sense. In fact is means the opposite. If your argument needs to be improved with big words that tells me you are making an attempt at distracting me from your lack of substance. I noticed you began using big words and atheists (which I assume you are, questioning God and claiming that you hope to learn from me even though you just attacked my views a very common atheist tactic) tend to hide behind them.
I understand the fact that you strongly believe in God, but my point was that saying that “I really don't think there is anything to argue about”, to me, sounds close-minded because it seems as if you are saying that there is no argument worth your time, they are all wrong, it is very possible that this is not what you were saying. And then your statement: “I know these people are wrong.” How do you know this? You have not met every atheist or theist that does not believe in the Christian god and you have probably not heard every argument.
Yes, saying “thank you Heavenly Father” certainly is the easiest thing to do, but does it make the most sense. For example, if I find a dollar bill on the ground, I could praise the lord and say “thank you Heavenly Father” and go on my way, but is it more likely that somebody had accidently dropped this money on the street and never noticed it, or that God, himself, placed this dollar there for me to find? Unless it is too personal, can you give me an example of one of these miracles you talk about?
“I live my life with so much more love because of my knowledge of Christ and my life is truly fulfilled with him in it.” I am glad for you, but I know of people who have been religious and are now humanitarian, atheist, theist, etc. and think the exact same thing. They are happier and more loving without Christ. This is a personal thing that can’t really be argued, so I submit that we leave this point as moot. I too am sad for those who are depressed, but when you say that you are sorry for those who are depressed and don’t have him, makes it seem like you believe that these two things go hand in hand. This is not the case at all.
“The atheist argument is that everything, the universe, earth, life, the sun, man, just happened by accident. The atheist argument is that somehow billions of years ago rocks turned into cells and that just doesn't make any sense.” This is a very common misconception of the “atheist argument”, though I would prefer to call the second half at least just evolution, because there is no all-encompassing “atheist argument”. Caveat lector: I am not a biologist, geologist, or any type of scientist, just a human being with limited knowledge. To say that this is all an accident is a huge misunderstanding. It was not an accident per se, we don’t really know how the universe came into existence, there is some evidence pointing towards a cyclical life of the universe, we can’t really say at this point. But to just solve this problem away with “oh well God did it”, to me at least, is a bit anticlimactic, wouldn’t it be really cool to know how it started for sure, if we can prove that God did it, then cool, but we haven’t. Your take on evolution is very common, and I can see it from your point of view. The theories on the origin of life are also very sketchy, some believe that crystal formations slowly mutated to have living organelles on them, we don’t know how this happened, but once it did evolution took over and through a process of natural selection we have the world of flora and fauna of today.
“There is no way that God did not create it all.” How can you say this? Do you know everything? Why can’t there be way in which God did not create it all? I just can’t wrap my head around this concept.
“I know that he is the only god because the bible, my pastor, and my moral fiber tell me. I need no more proof.” As for your Bible, do you believe that God himself wrote it, or humans? As for your pastor, is he not just another person who agrees with your point of view, why is what he says automatically right and the imam wrong? And your moral fiber is again subjective so is also moot; I can not disagree with you on this.
I have to split this post up.
Your last paragraph is insulting and rude. I apologize if my vocabulary includes “large words”, I find them to be more expressive and help me make my points. I am not trying to fluff up my argument; I am merely trying to make it say what I believe and what I am trying to ask you. Why can I not learn from you even if I disagree with your viewpoints? I do not hide behind my words, I use them to express what I believe openly and to make it very clear, yes, I am an atheist.
There was a lot said in your last response so bare with me here.
In response to your first argument: "have you met every atheist"
This is fighting dirty. Of course I have not heard every argument. But nether have you. It makes no sense to propose that as a legitimate argument. Just because there are multiple people who are wrong doesn't make them any less wrong. If you don't understand my perspective then I will pose this counter argument: You have not met every Christian, heard every argument and have not spoken to god or felt his presence. How do you know if you are right? Rather would you ever know?
Your second argument regarding the dollar bill misses the point. It is obvious that someone dropped it as long as it is material, but what if you found love? What if you came out of spiraling depression? What if you gave up drugs? Sure those things happen without God. But they happen through very spiritual realizations and whether people like it or not those instances are God in the works. When I prayed for the end of my depression God was there to help me.
A great example of a miracle would be when Jeanna Giese survived from rabies, a disease that is 100% fatal. Her father told reporters that it was because of prayer. Now to head off your argument that "they gave the girl lots of other drugs and that is what actually saved her" I would like to say that the exact same treatment has been repeated again and again and has never worked sense.
In your third argument you defeat yourself and realize that both points are moot so I will not address it.
Your fourth argument in which you claim that "this is not the case at all" lacks evidence to support your claim. Depression is caused by the sense that your life lacks purpose. The knowledge in god gives your life purpose. So from my perspective it is obvious that those who show signs of depression are just faltering in their religious duty. But don't take my word for it, ask any of your friends who have been depressed (religious or used to be religious) and ask them how they got through depression. Ask if it was an almost spiritual awakening when they exited depression. You will quickly see that I am right.
Your fifth argument is really more of a discussion. Nothing being said about the universe has been proven and so is at the very least equal to my explanation as to why the universe was created. But they still lack a "why" a thing that God answers immediately. Also I really don't think that just because something is "anticlimactic" means that it is wrong...
The whole idea that evolution took over after God's initial push completely makes sense to me. Evolution completely makes sense from a biblical point of view. So I agree with your sixth argument.
The seventh argument is a fun one. God wrote the Bible through the profits. God did not come down and tell them so they are not one hundred percent correct however they are still the word of god. Or the closest representation of it that us flawed humans can create.
That last separate rebuttal is rather provocative. First off I was trying to head off a common atheist tactic which is to make your language so "scientific" and incomprehensible that any attempt to argue becomes the atheist saying "that is not what I meant" You are not using this tactic but I stand by my decision to head it off before it happened.
Second, about the learning idea. I severely doubt that you are actually trying to "learn" from me here. It seems much more as though Atheists are attempting to teach those who are religious like they were a child and look down upon them as stupid people. Atheists don't have to admit it but I am very willing to just agree to disagree on that point. That statement was obviously seen as much more attacking of you than it was meant to be.
I have not met every Christian; I have heard a lot of arguments, but not all of them, as for feeling or speaking to God, that is a completely different thing. I accept these things and I say this, with all of the evidence given to me (or lack thereof), with all of the arguments I have had, and with all of the personal experiences I have had or heard of, I do not believe in the existence of God; I state this with a very important caveat, I might be wrong. If someone can give me the evidence, I will after careful considerations of the evidence, accept the existence of a supernatural being(s).
So we agree then that material things do not occur because of the hand of God? As for your examples of finding love, or coming out of spiraling depression, or giving up drugs, I can only personally address one of these. I have never had the type of depression that I believe that you are talking about and luckily never had a chemical addiction, but, and without getting too philosophical and existentialist, I have found love for me, my definition is probably different than yours but I understand where you are coming from. I am very glad for you that you were able to relieve yourself of depression, what I don’t understand is why you give all the credit away. When you say that God was there to help you, I read this to mean that you were able to help yourself, this God gave you a cause, a reason, and that is what you needed. Or maybe just the idea that there is a figure who loves and cares for you no matter what helped you out. However it occurred, why do you have to give all the credit to God, when really it was you that solved your problem using this method of organized religion? I understand what you are trying to say though, the feeling that you have found something that is completely inexplicable, for me for example, it is impossible for me to logically explain away the feelings I have for this person, but I know that they are there and that there is some reason, but I do not immediately say, “Wow, these feelings are powerful and I don’t understand them, therefore it must be God’s work.”
The treatments administered to Jeanna Giese, namely inducing a coma, have effectively worked on others now as well. Her case is an amazing one, but we should be giving praise to the doctors who were able to achieve the seemingly impossible using modern medicine. http://tinyurl.com/yeg35vm
It is interesting to say that I defeat myself…by coming to the conclusion that something is moot is not claiming that I lose, quite the opposite, I am saying neither of us can really argue.
“Depression is caused by the sense that your life lacks purpose. The knowledge in god gives your life purpose.” I agree with your premise, not having much knowledge in psychology, but I do not see the connection to your conclusion. I find purpose in my life perfectly well without gods. I live for other people and the world around me, to me that is a purpose in life.
“Nothing being said about the universe has been proven and so is at the very least equal to my explanation as to why the universe was created.” Not so, we are saying that we have many hypothesis on the beginning of the universe and here are our evidence points, whereas you are saying we have no idea, God did it. What created God?
So I guess this comes down to whether or not one believes God started evolution, not having enough biological background, I must plead ignorance on this topic and respectfully bow out, there are many others who you can talk to that can give good information.
By saying that the Bible is the closest representation of God’s word that we can create, how close is close? We could be way off and never know it. If there is the chance, and in my opinion a large chance, that the Bible we have today is radically different that what the word of God would have been, then why devote our life to it if it could be wrong?
As for any personal attacks that I perceived from you, I will be willing to brush those under the rug. But I must say that I really do want to see what you believe and why, or learn from you. I try not to be condescending, due to the fact that I hate it when people do it to me.
For the sake of perhaps more concise posts and readability, I suggest that you pick a topic that you feel really strongly about that we can discuss in detail and then move on to another topic.
I apologize that my response is so late however you must give me some time as I am baking for thanksgiving. I will get back to you on Friday (I hope)
I wish to argue the atheist idea as opposed to arguing on religious ground.
Cool! I will be unable to post until Saturday most likely.
So what exactly did you wish to talk about?
I assume you understand that the modern idea of morality comes from religious thought. The whole idea of a greater good comes from religion, the idea of self sacrifice comes from religion, the idea of improving the lives of those around you, of providing for those without, taking care of the elderly, burial, and medicine all come from religion or religious background.
Without arguing any religious theory with you at all I would like to ask: how do you know that the "course" of religion is over with? How do you know it is time to move on when religion could have so much more philosophy to give us?
I'm afraid your assumptions are not really correct. If the modern idea of morality comes from religious thought then I guess slavery is morally ok. If the idea of utilitarianism came from religion then I question why does utilitarianism have secular roots? If the idea of self sacrifice comes form religion then why does the Good Samaritan live in a time before Jesus? Medicine on the other hand does have some religious/mystical history to it, but not entirely.
As for why I think that the course of religion is over with I would have to say that we tried and it didn't work.
I would love to hear your argument that slavery is supported in the bible because in the end it is just that: an argument. The slavery argument was an interpretation of the bible that the deep south tried for during the time before the civil war.
Utilitarianism? That is completely irrelevant to the religious debate. God guided humans toward the first religions and began building our concept of morality way before the Greek philosophers decided to write it down.
As for the good Samaritan the Old Testament is still a religious book. We are arguing religion, not Christianity.
Moving on to medicine. It is completely embedded in religion. Think back to the cavemen. Think back to the catholic church. Think back to all of the medicines discovered by monks in the east.
I am confused about your last sentence. How did religion not work? What exactly did we try? How has religion failed?
As for slavery, there are many passages in the Bible that condone slavery and tell the masters how to treat them going as far as saying
Exodus 21:20-21
And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
You brought up utilitarianism by saying that "the whole idea of the greater good came from religion". I was just addressing this point. If God had been guiding humanity toward the first religions, then why where the first religions pagan and where later criminalized as the devils work and those who practiced these early God given religion were later slaughter and tortured by the new men of God?
I will accept that medicine is historically embedded into religion for a few reasons. Who had the time, money, and other resources to research this kind of thing? The religious. Who had the power early on to be able to tell other people what to do when sick? The religious. I believe that medicine is based in religion not because of some mystical purpose but simply a matter of logistics. Will you not accept that medicine now is and has dramatically improved due to modern secularism?
How did religion not work? Well, what does religion try to achieve? What was the goal of religion? Answer me this and I shall answer you.
Ok so there are things in the bible that one could use to make an argument that those who wrote the Old Testament had slaves. It does not say that having slaves is a good thing in fact in the exact same section (personal injuries) it says the opposite.
Exodus 21:16
"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or has him when he is caught must be put to death."
This is a very anti-slavery statement. Africans were kidnapped and shipped to America.
Like I said, it is just an argument and ultimately does not hold up to the overwhelming amount of peace and love that the Bible preaches. A counter argument is too easily made.
Utilitarianism was just the first time the idea of a Greater Good was written down. Civilization is based on the idea of a Greater Good and in the dawn of civilization people were organized and united through religion. The idea of a greater good came from religion. I mean really, do you honestly think that the idea of a greater good only came about when the Greeks wrote it down? No it came from the religious organization of the Mesopotamians and so on. I did not bring up Utilitarianism. I brought up religion.
To answer your question about God's guidance towards religion. God almost never directly acts with the Earth (with the exception of Jesus)He knew that humans were not developed enough philosophically to accept him as the True being so he worked us up to it. He influenced our thought. Man's naturally aggressive behavior often took his messages too far. Some people even exploited his messages for personal power. God knows that humans are slow to learn and doesn't want to interfere with our learning process.
Glad you have come around to the whole medicine thing. But of course I won't agree that medicine has been improved by "modern secularism"
That's just crazy talk. Medicine has been improved by modern science! Just Google "all the scientists that were Christians" and you can quickly get a huge list of all the religious scientists.
Medicine is science, secularism is politics. they have nothing to do with each other. Just like the discovery of Molecular Biology. Sure Francis Crick was an atheist. But does that mean that he was more capable of discovering anything scientific? Of course not.
Oh and nice side step to my last question.
To say that just because there are parts of the Bible, regardless of percentage, preach kindness and love does not counteract the hatred and slavery that is also presented. One can not ignore the malicious side of someone just because they talk real smooth and maybe even do some good. In specific reference towards slavery there is much more to point towards the approval of slavery than the disapproval. But I do not want to be hypocritical, just because there is more pro-slavery ideals in the Bible than antislavery ideals does not mean I can ignore the antislavery parts, but on the same token you must also acknowledge that the Bible does, in quite a few areas, approve of slavery.
How do you know that the idea of a greater good came from religion?
I do not believe as you caustically ask that utilitarianism stems from when Greeks wrote it down. I believe that utilitarianism and altruism have evolutionary benefits and have been selected for and the Greeks happened to notice this aspect of humanity and give it a name.
If God almost never directly acts with the Earth how do you explain the hundreds of people claiming that God told them to do something? How do you explain the events of the Bible (God seemed to have quite the role in the Bible)? So God is perfectly willing to create humanity but instead of giving them the ability to comprehend what he actually wanted of them and the development to accept him, he let humanity slowly learn about religion and then use it as a affirmation of their aggressive tendencies? God thinks this is alright, that thousands will die in his name just because the race of humans he created are quite developed enough?
First of all there were a great deal of scientists and astronomers and the like that have publicly announced to be Christians for fear of the treatment the church would impose upon them. The early church especially condemned men of science and condemned there work (just look at Galileo Galilee). When you say that Francis Crick was an atheist and was not any more capable to do his work because of this, I would tend to agree with you although some might argue that because he was an atheist he was able to perform better in some way. My main issue with this point is that it alludes to the idea that perhaps being religious can help, and it does not any more than atheism.
Well if you want me to tell you how religion did not work I will require what you think religion was supposed to achieve. I can not tell you how it failed if I don't know what the goal was.
Hello Lucas, If you are still up for this debate, I will answer your points.
First off I must say that I am a protestant, that is I believe that the Bible can be interpreted by anyone whom god chooses. I must say off of that point that The church I am in does not present this "hatred" you talk about and I don't believe my preacher only does "some good" I believe he does mostly good. It really seems as though you want to count up all the times the Bible says something that can be interpreted as slavery and compare them to all the times the Jesus says something like God loves all people. I do not believe that the Bible promotes slavery just that it leaves room for it. Remember the Bible was written by mortal men and God commanded them to write what they believed. Some of them believed in slavery particularly in the old testament but that does not mean that Christianity endorses slavery at all.
I know the idea of a greater good came from religion because it is evidenced in every religion on the planet no matter how old. I believe that without religion humans would never have gotten to where they are today. You can go ahead and ignore history I don't care.
Hundreds of people also believe in aliens but I don't. People lie. Sad to say. Many of God's actions in the bible are metaphors to be applied to our current lives. Don't you remember my third post?
As to the second part of your third paragraph, I am only human. I don't know what God has planned for us but I am still willing to be a part of it.
Glad we agree on that fourth point. Neither helps the other But the study of medicine came out of religion.
Only God knows what Religion is supposed to achieve. For me it gives me purpose without which I would die just like I would die from starvation.
I am tired of answering your counter questions while you keep me on the defensive. Remember you said that you could be questioned about Atheism. So, tell me, what purpose does Atheism serve? How would the world be a better place if religion was not here?
Glad you are back.
It is extraordinarily hard for me to do so, but I will not answer any of your counter points, even though I have problems and points for all of them. Instead I will do as asked and answer your questions on atheism.
What purpose does atheism serve?
Interesting question. I do not think that there is a ultimate purpose, like there is in religion. There is no saving of the soul or afterlife, etc. Instead atheism promotes the idea that there is no God at all and that belief in one is crutch, a barrier if you will, of humanity.
How would the world be a better place if religion was not here?
To me this is relatively obvious. Let us look at all of the death due to religion: Crusades for example. The thousands of people who are killed in the name of religious beliefs. Nobody is killed in the name of atheism. Just look at the history of religion and you will find it filled with blood, lies, torture, and so much more. Another example: look at the recent cases of child molestation by religious figure heads that are then protected by the church and are not brought to justice. Look at the inequality that religion puts on various peoples.
There is one point you made that I can not let go, you will forgive me. You say that "Many of God's actions in the bible are metaphors...". How does one tell what is a metaphor and what is not?
You say "nobody is killed in the name of atheism." First of all that is completely false. I am 100% sure that some crazy guy has decided to kill someone else because of they were an atheist and thought the other person was evil or something. Not to mention Mao Zedong etc. who all thought religion was evil.
You say that the history of religion is filled with blood. So is man's history but does that mean we should get rid of humans? Of course not. Why? Because we do good things too.
when it comes to your point where you say:
"Look at the inequality that religion puts on various peoples."
In the absence of religion people don't do any better. Might I mention Stalin, Mao, Hồ Chí Minh, Ba Thein Tin. All very very hateful of any religion and all pro-societal segregation (if not killing of other people)
To answer your last thought: There is no way of knowing because we are all mortal men. Thus we are offered such a brilliant array of religious choice.
True, I guess saying nobody is killed in the name of atheism is a bit over an overstatement; I was not considering the potentiality of a actually mentally handicapped, be it schizophrenia or whatever, guy killing people. But if they are "crazy", do we really want to say that they killed in the name of atheism or religion? Perhaps they killed someone because they were crazy and just said, perhaps they even believe it, that they killed them for this or that reason. Just a thought.
So you bring up Mao, Stalin and others. I was wondering when you would do that. Communism, intrinsically against religion, but these people did not kill others because they were atheists. They killed them for various reasons be it racial cleansing or what have you. Although this proves nothing how many times have you heard of some nutcase going off and shooting people and he is an atheist compared to the number of times someone goes and shoots people and is a religious person?
So you take the very few and cherry picked evidence points of famous killers and say look at these abnormalities and what they did, they are atheists too, therefore atheism is no good. Let me list a few names for you, for two can play at this game: Pope Urban II, Pope Gregory VIII, Pope Innocent III, Pope Gregory IX, and these are just popes. So you can see that I can find just as many devout religious people who kill.
True, the attempts at communist rule failed drastically. But these people were not trying to create an atheist utopia. They were trying to create a communist utopia, theoretically. As for whether or not the absence of religion makes people better, look at countries with really low religious attendance numbers, these countries tend to be places that people enjoy living in and places that are very fair.
So basically if there is no way of knowing what is and what is not a metaphor then you can take all the parts of the Bible that are hard to deal with, like the genocide and such, and just say it was a metaphor. How handy, completely illogical, but handy.
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